Subject: Fwd: Re: [burningcorn] One thing that wasn't too cool at B.C. --- In burningcorn@y..., Chris Stecker wrote: I'm really sorry that I wasn't able to attend. The after-messages sure make it sound great. This consent issue is an interesting problem. But it needs some clarification. 1) Is it about "the chilling effect" of cameras? 2) Is it about a model's right to consent to use of their image? If the first, then if it makes sense to ban cameras, then it makes sense to ban spectators totally. Sounds ludricous, because it's unworkable, but if the rules must be changed to accommodate the camera-shy, then perhaps they must be changed to accommodate to just-plain-old shy. As to the second point, I believe Mr. Dunphy is correct. He has a right to not consent to the public use of his image. I'm not sure he has the right to not consent to being photographed. This is a legal issue, and I'm no lawyer. In my personal opinion, as a photographer, sound-recordist, videographer, and collage artist, I believe that cameras should be present, because they represent an act of creative expression. They provide one way to reveal to others what you see in a situation, place, object, or event. They are always a big part of burning man, and the films that result travel the SF art scene to broad acclaim. Next year, people will show their videos, pictures, etc, of burning corn and some will be documentary reminiscences and some will be really cool re-works of images that capture to spirit of BC2001. People at BC2002 will love it. Next year, post a sign at the front that states that cameras and recording devices are in use and your presence here indicates your consent to be photographed. Under that, put a sign that outlines the principles that videographers should abide by: Participate, don't merely spectate. Make something new. Don't publicly present recognizable images of persons participating in the event without their consent. And don't use any of this material for commercial purposes. Just my 3 cents. I'll be looking forward to attending the 20th annual Burning Corn, once my baby is no longer a minor. -Chris At 09:19 AM 7/31/01 -0400, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Joseph Dunphy >To: >Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2001 4:03 AM >Subject: Re: [burningcorn] One thing that wasn't too cool at B.C. > > > > > > > > On Tue, 31 Jul 2001, Gary Xaoui wrote: > > > > > I was busy blowing fire and missed some of the best burn stuff, I am >glad to > > > know that it was documented. This is a age of media, people and >recording > > > equipment are everywhere. > > > > No, Gary, it's not. We could get into some vague, handwaving debate about > > the spirit of the age, but that's beside the point. What is on point, is > > that this is very poor hospitality, and it simply isn't done, especially > > when the participants in question >aren't celebrities<, and do expect > > their privacy to be respected. > >I disagree, I am vidio taped and recorded in public all the time, servalince >and security camars, hidden in places without warning. When are you ever >alowne in a largre city? Last time I was alone in Chicago it was in my >rented rooms hotel toilet. > > > On a personal level, had your friend approached me, and asked me if I > > would mind be photographed, I might have been willing to discuss the > > possibility with him. There are friends who have earned my trust to such > > an extent, that I've even told them to just go ahead any time they want, > > because I know it will be done with respect, and I feel comfortable with > > that. In some cases, I would even feel honored, whether I was clothed or > > nude at the time, just to be part of the person's work. > > >Just to be clear, the person who took the image in question, is no more my >friend than yours, I do not know thins person and have had only contact with >them via e-mail previously. In fact I am not sure who he is still. It >seems to me that in the images he posted, people are only reconisable to the >persons who attended. I think he did a good job with the images. They >document the energy that was happening quite well. > > > A stranger playing paparozzi, however, is a much different feeling. So is > > being put on TV. That could get to be a nuisance. > > > > > Events like this are never private, people are > > > all around you, some are participating and others are not. Spectators >while > > > not appreciated are still a reality. > > > > Well, there are spectators, and there are spectators. The people who go to > > an event like "Burning Corn", with a tiny handful of exceptions, are going > > to be so cool about almost anything you do, that you're going to feel > > comfortable about doing it in front of them. The people on Columbus Public > > Access TV, though ? God only knows. And it's not like Columbus is this > > tiny little town that none of us are ever likely to visit, or move to. > > This could be a problem. > >Well I do not know how this thread of any part of Burning Corn being shown >on Col. Public T.V. got started. Right now not much is being showne on our >P.A. tv. and what is shown on there is a lot more shocking and pushing of >the limits then anything that happend at Burning Corn (I can and will >explain further if nessisary) There was mention of showing it on Athens >Public acsess by a person called, 'The Sawmi' in this E-Group. And that >person was told to,"ask first, shoot later." > > > > > Now, if you were talking about a film intended to be shown to small > > audiences in coffeehouses, and other places where people again, would be > > cool with that, because they had made an effort to go out and see that > > kind of thing, I suspect that you'd find that almost everybody would be OK > > with that. But, again, you have to check with people, and Phil just > > didn't. It's not like I would have been hard to find, either. I was 6'4", > > naked, and out all night, going from camp to camp. How much more > > conspicuous could I have been ? > > > > Were that the case, as unfortunately it was not, it would be a simple > > matter to announce this at the beginning of the program, and, again, > > people would be put at ease. > > > > > If you would not want your behavior > > > viewed by others then you possibly should reconsider your motivation for > > > doing it. > > > > Which behavior ? Everything has its own audience. I certainly feel no > > shame for having made love to my ex-fiance, but would I want to have even > > my closest friends watch me do so ? Probably not. Nor would it be > > expected, or accepted, without the both of us agreeing. > > Any behavior done in a public setting. > > > A gathering like this may not have the same level of intimacy, but it does > > have some, and it should. What is intended for those sharing an > > experience, is not necessarily intended, or appropriate for global > > distribution. This is a given, Gary ? No. It is unheard of. > >What you do outside in public is just that public. Prehaps you have not >noticed this trend in the last few years, the internet and Media have made >it 'normal' it is very heard of. Turn on the TV and you are bombarded by >images of people doing things in public with out being given the oppertunity >for consent. I have seen poeple on the news from allover the world being >shown doing stuff that they might not be so prowd of others seeing them do. >(soccer rioters for example) > > > > > > the time. if there are things you do not want others to Hear, do not >say > > > them, do not want others to read you most privet thoughts? Do not write >them > > > down, same with how you act. If you don't do it then no one will >see...... > > > > This begins to sound a little like "1984". Choose between your privacy, > > and your freedom ? > >Its not a matter of chouseing between privicy and freedom. Its a matter of >saying, acting, doing things that you want others to experiance. Part of >freedom is being responcable for you actions. > > > > > > I guess I just live my life in such a way as to not need to 'let my >hair > > > down' or 'cut loose' by living life the way I want to and not caring so >much > > > what society thinks. > > > > Yeah, well, Gary, part of the point, here, is that if you want a festival > > to be a festival, you have to create an environment in which people feel > > comfortable enough to get there, in their own time, in their own way. > > Placing videocameras there kind of closes off that option. > > > > > Would I be bothered by images of me dancing > > > around the fire necked being posted or shown to my Family, friends, or > > > boss/coworkers. No not really > > > > Me, neither. There's a drawing of me from an art class that I modeled for, > > that is hanging in my aunt's room, right now. It's a nice piece of art. > > But, even when it is something that we are comfortable with, it is always > > about consent. One has the right to be asked, and the right to say "no", > > and have that wish respected. So, first things first. ASK. > > > > And, like I said, other people will feel otherwise. We are, perhaps, not > > so far apart on all points. I, too, would like to see people feel free to > > put aside arbitrary social conventions, to the extent that the > > circumstances make practical. If that happened enough, those circumstances > > would eventually be a lot more relaxed. If you arent' ready to honor their > > boundaries, people aren't going to be getting there. Where I take serious > > issue, is with your "all or nothing" approach. Either one should wear a > > three piece business suit into the shower, or be willing to hang nude from > > a Trapeze in Times Square on the Jumbotron, it would seem. I think that > > the world may have room for a little more middle ground than that. > >"All or nothing approach"? Now whare did I indicate that? It was not a >manditory nudity/act craszy event. I am simply saying that when you are in >public, you must remember that others are seeing you do what ever it is you >do. Exceptable behavure is a social group thing, what is excptable in one >place and time is not in others. The presents of recording devices is >constant in our mordern socity. What about the memories of thouse around >you, what if they started telling friends about the event? Mentioned your >name, said you were naked. That would be wrong, but if they were just to >mention that there was some nakked people, that would be ok right? So the >images in question, were no more discriptive than that. Yes itis possable >that images (still or vidio) were taken that you, or others might be >reconisable, yes it is possable that some or all of them could be put into a >format that the general public could see them. Yes this result could >negitvly effect you in some way. I will not disagre with this. In a >perfict world you would be asked before ever having you rights violated if >it was ok. But we do not live there. We dcan only hope that the recording >that were made at Burning Corn will be used to premote and document this >event in a positive and artistc way. > > > >, it might give me some difficult explaining > > > and describing of the circumstance to do but if they cannot handle it >and it > > > was not illegal. then its not my problem. Now if someone were taking my > > > recognizable image and making big money off of it. (Like selling a tape >of > > > "Weirdo Tall White Artist Guys Caught On Tape", or "Worlds Worst Nude >Male > > > Firedancers #2" ) I would definitely want my cut!!! > > > > If somebody was making money off my nude image, I probably wouldn't make > > an issue about cash, as I do believe that this would be one of the seven > > signs of the apocalypse. > > > > > I am eager to see more. > > > GXAOUI > > > > As am I, but only when it is done with respect, and that means > > consensually. No more camera ambushes, OK ? That wasn't nice. > > > > > > Joe >I am sorry that you were offended by the actions of a small group of >persons, I think most of them were just trying to document the corn burning >and capture to energy of the event. I hope that no one had or has evil >intent. > >If anything it has caused discussion of the matter and made people think >about the situation. > >GXAOUI > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: >burningcorn-unsubscribe@y... > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Chris Stecker, Honcho Ovenguard Music cstecker@o... www.ovenguard.com --- End forwarded message ---