From Joe Dunphy Tue Sep 28 18:32:56 2004
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Joe Dunphy" Add to Address Book
Subject: Re: phone calls
To: "Liz - BopCamp"
In-Reply-To: <20040928230440.18987.qmail@web50401.mail.yahoo.com>
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Liz - BopCamp wrote:

> .. ok... since you won't listen on the phone maybe here

> .. sometimes you need to let someone finish i conversation to see
> .. where they were going

Yes, Liz, exactly what you didn't do when I started telling you what happened.

> .. so i leave off here.. some say ignore him...

Yeah, how about that? I meet Brian Buckman at one of your events on Thursday, he offers to make peace, I accept, and not even five full days later one of his longtime cronies is clutching at straws, looking for an excuse to revive the very hostilities that his buddy pretended to be laying to rest on Thursday. It's called a betrayal of trust, and I don't forget those.

> .. OBVIOUSLY!! i am not ignoring you.. if i had.. i would not have
> .. sent you an email.. or two and now three saying... that i wanted
> .. to talk and figure out all of this stuff.

No, Liz, you see, a real conversation has two people in it. Your idea of a conversation seemed to be one that involved you filibustering while I listened, and you cutting me off in mid-sentence whenever I tried to get more than four or five words in edgewise. Have you ever heard the word "motormouth" before?

> .. i could have just not responded and not called back.. twice...

After I told you to go away ... thanks for not respecting my wishes.

> .. if you would like to hear the rest of my conversation which is
> .. NOT! about bashing you, it's about each person and their right
> .. of opinion.. I.E! your right to say what you would like to say...

... unless I need more than five words to say it in. How many different ways can I say this, and how many different ways will I need to, before I pound this one simple fact through your thick, rock hard skull? I have absolutely no objection to one of your members holding a liberal democratic event. I simply wanted to make sure that as a moderately conservative republican, that I was not barging in where I would not be welcome. If I had been told that there was a political litmus test for membership, I would have been astounded given the apolitical nature of what you guys did, but I would have totally respected your camp's wishes, and passed on attending your events, without protest, and without thinking any the less of any of you.

Given the fact that I saw some mention of Bush supporters being "tarred and feathered", it was a reasonable concern for me to have. Given how awkward those evenings can become when one does stumble into a place where one is unwelcome for ideological reasons, this was a very reasonable concern. So I did the one and only thing I could do under the circumstances.

I asked.

If you feel that my asking, "is it OK for me to come", is me "blowing up your list", then please take that up with your therapist, because I don't want to hear about it. It was a simple, reasonable question, asked in a respectful and even slightly lighthearted fashion. As I put it, when I heard about how Bop was played, it never even occured to me to wonder whether the duck was a Democrat or a Republican, or if the teddy bears had registered to vote. There is nothing in any of this that should have served as a tip-off that this was a specifically liberal camp, so I would have found the whole situation a cause for amusement - not anger.

And then, and I'm going to put some of this in caps so that you will see this - somebody said that my political affiliations would not be considered a problem were I to attend, AND I THANKED HIM FOR CLEARING THAT UP. I did so in public, on your frigging list, no less than twice, thanking each of the two people who reassured me in that fashion. So, hello, Liz, I already understood that, and there never was a flamewar on that issue. That's not what the flamewar was about, and unless something happened after I unsubscribed, I have no issue with the guy holding that party. I hope he has fun at it, no matter how the election turns out.

What I am angry about is not that point of confusion, nor the fact that liberal democrats are holding parties. What I'm angry about, and rightly so, is the fact that Andy grabbed onto this exchange as an excuse to revive a three year old flamewar. Even if he had been 100% right back then and I had been 100% wrong - and in reality, it was much more the reverse - he would have been 100% out of line at that point. That is rude, inexcusable behavior, and as your guest, I had the right to expect my host to speak up in my support when I found myself being abused without reason. That much is just simple, basic hospitality. For a sampler of what Andy (aka Andy) used this occasion as an excuse to gripe about, here are some unfinished accounts of the silliness he wants to bring back to life.

http://web.newsguy.com/commonsense/burning-jung.html
http://www.geocities.com/medius2/buckman.html

To think, I was trying to convince the owner of chi-burning to accept Mr.Buckman's offer of peace, and was succeeding, even if he was a little reluctant at first. To his credit, though, he hasn't said anything like "told you so, Joseph", because I should have seen this coming.

> .. but i doubt that you are even reading this

Obviously, I am reading this. I'm just not buying it.

> .. and to point out something VERY IMPORTANT TO ME!

which is exactly your problem, Liz: self-absorption. And exactly how we differ as moderators. If I was running chi-burning purely based on what was important to me, I probably would have said something like "all Bop Camp members can pi** off right now". But I didn't do that. I compromised, and invited all of you - yes, even you Liz - to stay, but just not mention your camp. chi-burning was specifically created as a sanctuary to get away from the kind of c**p I saw out of Andy, today, and if Bop Camp is going to be a place where that kind of bullsh** goes on, then it's not a place where we're going to send people.

That would not be consistent with our list's reason for being. I would have responded in the same way if any of our 143 members had been dry gulched in this manner, and if your camp is going to do something that is going to get it uninvited to a list, how very stupid of you guys to do it to one of the moderators. I don't need to dig too much to determine what was going on; I was there. So how did you think that this would turn out?

> .. things that are posted on this list are not just bop camp events. hence
> .. MY! event tomorrow night is NOT! a bop camp event.. it is a liz
> .. throwing a full moon event for ALL OF CHICAGO!

Uh, huh. Of course, if I go there, I can count on being abused some more, while the organizers of Bop Camp sit around with big, idiot grins on their faces and wonder why I mind. Thanks, but no thanks. Oh, and I'm guessing that most of the other 2.7 million people in Chicago might have some place else to be on Wednesday, but don't quote me on that.

> .. but if you care to continue this conversation..
> .. then you know how to get a hold of me

Like you'd even really listen. Look at the way you capitalize "MY", like it's the most important word in the entire world. I have had the privilege of taking classes from and being advised by people who've already appeared in books about the history of Mathematics, Physics and Engineering, great minds one and all, and if you were to take all of their egos and put them together, they would be as a grain of sand before the mountain that is your ego. So, I have to ask, who is this Liz Campanella, that she thinks that all need to know what is important to her, without her feeling the need to listen to one word of what others have to say?

> .. otherwise.

> .. may sunshine fill your life

I live in Chicago. It's a pleasant surprise when sunshine fills my summer.

Liz, go away. I have one hell of a headache, you're only contributing to it,. and I'm seriously asking myself why I ever bothered with you, Bop Camp or Burning. What a lovely subculture, Burnerdom is! One can never count on one's friends, and one's enemies never let go.


Joseph Dunphy



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